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Post by gallito on Nov 30, 2016 17:50:56 GMT -5
Go to www.avherald.com (a lot of info) then Click on the C lamia flight This is a simple instrument approach to Rio Negro (the downtown old airport is a can of worms as foggy a lot and high terrain south of the runway--like houses) They speak of another flt vivo colombia that was diverting and just ahead--so possibly reason in the holding pattern or was descending in the holding pattern for the approach as the chart demonstrates-- appears the engine were not running--however on these 4 engine deals some times 2 of the 4 would be at idle during descent --these things have GPWS ---an altitude alert alarm would have gone off to warn of rising terrain @waterloo knows his stuff;limia was 3rd in holding pattern...furtermore to many if ands or buts won't replace the dead.
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Post by wildstubby on Nov 30, 2016 17:54:31 GMT -5
I agree with you cc. An emergency 76 or 77 code would have given him priority. I think if fuel was at extreme, I would have flown it in and let everyone else divert. To be out there low on fuel flying a racetrack pattern sounds odd, but this is CO not US. I think if this would have been a EMB-190, I don't think we would be discussing survivors. But because he had his wings 'high', it gave him a little more of a stable glidepath and hit the ground at a much slower speed as the others.
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Post by sedelen on Nov 30, 2016 21:16:22 GMT -5
Newer reports coming to light, the desperate pleas from the pilot requesting priority landing do to no fuel. Negligence coming into play as the plane should never have never been allowed to leave without a reserve. And so it is, heavy rains, a lot of planes in the pattern, and you have this emergency. Perhaps I shouldn't say this, but if the air traffic controllers reacted a little quicker this might have been averted. I mean it made several loops in the area before it went down. Appears the plane just ran out of fuel. www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/pilot-told-colombia-controllers-no-fuel-before-crash/ar-AAkW1Pr?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhpI haven't seen any evidence the controllers did not react quickly once they were told of the issue. The plane was circling because another airliner had been given priority to land due to a fuel leak. I am sure that the controllers would have given the Limia jet priority had they been informed that he was extremely low on fuel. My suspicion is that he was inattentive to his gauges and/or they were inaccurate and he didn't know anything until the first engine shut down. Indeed, you are right, so I believe the controllers had their hands full, and I saw a lot of planes on the radar pattern and watched as the plane disappear off the radar on one you tube video, another plane had priority to land with a fuel leak, but he did let them know he was out of fuel as he was told to wait seven minutes in a holding pattern, and it was there that he told them he had complete electrical failure (perhaps engine generators provided the electricity), and he was without fuel as he went into a 4 minute "death" spiral. I wonder if the electricity lost provided electricity to electronically operate actuators to flight controls? But seriously this was a chartered flight, and as such more things can go wrong, less familiarity with routes, and using equipment that's not up to speed, such as this aircraft that barely had enough range to make it there on a full tank of fuel.
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Post by jafo19d on Nov 30, 2016 21:32:47 GMT -5
I once sat next to a United pilot on a flight from Denver to DC. We were both military and I asked him why the rough landings on military charter flights. We always flew a charter plane to Kuwait and from Kuwait to Iraq it was a military plane.
Anyhow the landings on the military planes were always really hard and I asked him if it was because of all our duffel bags and weapons. He told me that the reasons we had hard landings is because the pilots sucked.
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Post by wildstubby on Nov 30, 2016 22:09:01 GMT -5
sedelen said: The -146 is an old aircraft. It was made before the days of 'fly-by-wire'. IFF and flight instruments are to operate separately to that of the rest of the electrical equipment. But I'm not going to say if that was the case for this type of aircraft. A 76 or 77 on its IFF transponder would have shown a declared emergency. Even if comms were gone. I still would have tried to make it to the runway instead of losing altitude in a pattern!
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Post by sedelen on Nov 30, 2016 22:25:47 GMT -5
sedelen said:The -146 is an old aircraft. It was made before the days of 'fly-by-wire'. IFF and flight instruments are to operate separately to that of the rest of the electrical equipment. But I'm not going to say if that was the case for this type of aircraft. A 76 or 77 on its IFF transponder would have shown a declared emergency. Even if comms were gone. I still would have tried to make it to the runway instead of losing altitude in a pattern! That's a tough one, because it was raining and visibility was bad, that countryside is dark, even darker on a rainy night. He was probably just trying to hold on hoping he'd get clearance to go ahead to land and then fuel ran out along with his options. I would have been looking for a road somewhere, or a field, anything but the side of a mountain while I still had power and control. I think what I was asking is electrical powered servos moving the flight controls, like on a 737, unlike a old gooney bird. As old as it was, do you think it had TACAN? Surely the Identification Friend or Foe 76 or 77 squawk code should had that plane flashing on the controllers radar. Whatever the case, it's a truly sad situation. Hopefully there will be some lessons learned from this. The memorial service in place of the game tonight was really moving, a class act I thought.
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Post by jafo19d on Dec 1, 2016 4:16:31 GMT -5
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Post by jafo19d on Dec 1, 2016 5:00:41 GMT -5
The pilot was a complete ass clown
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2016 5:32:16 GMT -5
The Avianca light to New York-- He was in trouble long before he ran out of fuel--the captain spoke little English--though the F.O. did--which added to the issue-- The northeast was socked in with weather--he was put in to a couple of holding patterns on the way up from over Washington-- for traffic arrival flow--he then screwed up his approach--
When the northeast is down--one has to be careful flying up that way on fuel load and where to land if necessary--if one airport is down--most are all down due to weather--
The Avianca NTSB accident report AAR-91-04 is interesting reading--like a suspense thriller--however one already knowing the outcome--
The BAE-146 range can be a mute point--- for the wind factor component---a tailwind increases range--versus a headwind during the flight which decreases range-
Where he went wrong--and it is not Monday morning quarterbacking--he should have stopped in Bogota etc--and or declared a fuel emergency to Medellin--he was on the same frequency as the other aircraft--should have said to all he was out of fuel so everyone else get the hell out of the way--and later on filled in the mountains of paperwork-- (the other side is the Latin mentality----one can handle all situations) After all --
Common sense says out of fuel at night is almost a guaranteed death sentence----let alone the day and in the mountains--
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Post by sedelen on Dec 1, 2016 12:35:44 GMT -5
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Post by coolcoil on Dec 1, 2016 12:51:26 GMT -5
As I noted before, I would bet this guy was not paying attention to his fuel at all, and his first clue that he had a problem is when the first engine quit. They would not all quit at the same time, as the fuel cannot be perfectly distributed evenly among the engines.
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Post by sedelen on Dec 1, 2016 13:03:52 GMT -5
As I noted before, I would bet this guy was not paying attention to his fuel at all, and his first clue that he had a problem is when the first engine quit. They would not all quit at the same time, as the fuel cannot be perfectly distributed evenly among the engines. And he didn't declare a may day either until it was too late, so the air traffic controller didn't completely realize the seriousness of the situation initially.
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Post by sedelen on Dec 1, 2016 18:44:39 GMT -5
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Post by sedelen on Dec 2, 2016 10:13:45 GMT -5
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Post by sedelen on Dec 2, 2016 16:39:52 GMT -5
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Post by expat15 on Dec 3, 2016 5:10:39 GMT -5
The pilot was a co-owner of the company and this was his fourth such trip to Medellin. He was in violation of the reg's ... his luck ran out on this particular flight.
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Post by expat15 on Dec 3, 2016 5:25:20 GMT -5
Sounds like a bit of corruption involved in LaMia's flight operations. No mention of a co-pilot on the aircraft. The Colombian spokesman has already stressed that they will be investigating why LaMia authorised a flight which was beyond the range of the aircraft. The Bolivian civil aviation authority immediately suspended LaMia’s Air Operator Certificate (AOC) as a result of the crash. Bolivian Law requires all employers to be registered with the Ministry of Labour but, although LaMia has eight employees, it turns out that it was never registered with the government. The Bolivian Ministry of Public Services has announced that in addition to suspending LaMia’s AOC, they are investigating how the AOC was approved. There will be an internal investigation into the conduct of Bolivia’s Administración de Aeropuertos y Servicios Auxliares a la Navegación Aérea (Administration of Airports and Air Navigation Services) regarding administrative and operational permits. It turns out that the Director of Aircraft Registries at Bolivia’s Civil Aviation Authority is the son of Gustavo Vargas Gamboa, the surviving owner of LaMia. fearoflanding.com/accidents/not-enough-fuel-the-disgusting-truth-about-lamia-flight-2933/
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Post by wildstubby on Dec 3, 2016 10:00:53 GMT -5
Sounds like a case of 'Pennywise and Pound foolish!' The 'Pound foolish' was paid with the lives of all onboard!!!!
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Post by sedelen on Dec 3, 2016 10:06:30 GMT -5
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Post by jafo19d on Dec 3, 2016 12:23:28 GMT -5
That same plane was used to transport the Argentinian team when they played Colombia. If you recall the flight encountered such bad turbulence that some players including Messi had to be checked out by medical personnel.
Can you imagine if the plane with Messi aboard would have gone down? The world would riot.
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Post by elexpatriado on Dec 3, 2016 14:39:51 GMT -5
It was a plane belonging to a Bolivian charter company - that would not have given me a lot of confidence if I was flying on it, again its really about the ability of the pilots if something goes wrong. I have a number of clients in South Florida who sell aviation parts to airlines in Latin America - will have to ask them about airlines in Bolivia. This hits a bit close to home for me since I fly into MDE usually about 5 times a year and know the approach well - I am a bit nervous when we come in at night with low visibility - I know the mountains around the area - you don't have to make a big mistake to put yourself into a bit of danger. You take infinitely bigger risks driving your moto around Colombia Jabberwocky unlessyou get on a DC-10 or cessna charter toan exoticlocation like Capurgana or Caño cristales
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Post by elexpatriado on Dec 3, 2016 15:00:07 GMT -5
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Post by sedelen on Dec 3, 2016 22:35:37 GMT -5
The pilot was a co-owner of the company and this was his fourth such trip to Medellin. He was in violation of the reg's ... his luck ran out on this particular flight. Yeah, as I've read where the company said it was up to the pilot to determine whether he needed to stop in Bogota to refuel and obviously he decided not too, said it was too late. What he didn't count on was another plane taking an emergency landing priority also. He was doomed at that point.
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Post by sedelen on Dec 3, 2016 22:46:06 GMT -5
It was a plane belonging to a Bolivian charter company - that would not have given me a lot of confidence if I was flying on it, again its really about the ability of the pilots if something goes wrong. I have a number of clients in South Florida who sell aviation parts to airlines in Latin America - will have to ask them about airlines in Bolivia. This hits a bit close to home for me since I fly into MDE usually about 5 times a year and know the approach well - I am a bit nervous when we come in at night with low visibility - I know the mountains around the area - you don't have to make a big mistake to put yourself into a bit of danger. You won't be coming in on a fly by night charter flight though, I think that makes a lot of difference in safety as the frequently flown flights are experienced instead of every blue moon flying here and there.
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Post by livinginmedellin on Dec 4, 2016 10:22:52 GMT -5
Chapecoense to Be Crowned South American Cup Champion Five days after the fatal plane crash in Colombia that claimed the lives of most of the teams players, Brazilian soccer club Chapecoense will be awarded the Copa Sudamericana title, the region's soccer confederation announced. "Conmebol (the governing body of football in South America) is going to declare Chapecoense as champion of the South American Cup," said club president Iván Tozzo, according to Globo's website. "In addition, Chapecoense will receive the two million dollar prize," he added. Tozzo issued the comments after a memorial service for the soccer club that was attended by more than 100,000 people, as the remains of 50 victims arrived on Saturday in the Brazilian town of Chapeco. In total, 71 people were killed Monday night when a plane carrying the Brazilian first division team crashed shortly before it was scheduled to land in Medellín, Colombia, where they were scheduled to play a Copa Sudamericana final first leg against Atletico Nacional in Medellin. There were only six survivors — three players, two Bolivian crew members, and one Brazilian journalist. The small Brazilian city was captivated by the rise of its modest soccer club and today have packed the Arena Conda where they will pay their respects before the burial. The memorial comes after a heart-wrenching week for Brazilians and family members stunned by the crash. Earlier in the week, Atletico Nacional called for the Cup to be handed over to their rivals. See: www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Chapecoense-to-Be-Crowned-South-American-Cup-Champion-Report-20161203-0021.html
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Post by sedelen on Dec 20, 2016 16:21:08 GMT -5
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