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Post by barrumundi on Apr 28, 2016 20:40:20 GMT -5
elexpatriado go back to the top and read the OP again. It is NOT so much the hourly rate that could be the problem .....it is all the added on extra benefits like providing a uniform, the extra payments for holidays, paying for health insurance etc. If you don't dot all the i's and cross all the t's it can come back to bite you. I would love to tell you the full story of what happened with the little indian beach in my example but it is too much personal information to post on a public forum. Maybe one day we can get together for a few cold beers and swap some war stories.
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Post by dandl93 on Apr 29, 2016 6:52:02 GMT -5
Been there and gone thru it.
Employees dont pay the lawyer it is provided by the Gov.
Employers Do have to pay their lawyers and all legal fees (win or lose).
A friend of mine last year paid a employee (farm worker) of his fathers estate 50 million.After his father died the employee sued the estate.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2016 8:28:11 GMT -5
the law that is emerging here is hypocritical at best and really serves to create further division between those who employee and those who work for employers. a close personal friend of mine (colombian) who has substantial assets owns a recreational/agricultural finca. she employees about 5 people at the finca to help with the cattle and maintenance around the farm. the men do the outside work and the women (wives) take care of the house. suffice it to say, it is a never ending revolving door with these people as most of them can't read or write, are hard to give direction to and would rather work less all the time. the last mayordomo she hired to take care of the property and cattle started cheating on his wife in the little town below the finca. it was basically a no win situation and was causing problems so she fired him after about two months. sunday afternoon after she left the farm to come back to town, he recruited some guys down in the little town and they spent 4-5 days tearing up the house. their MO was to bust holes in the concrete in every room looking for a guaca. they destroyed most of the furniture and threw hundreds of pounds of dirt into the pool. all in all they did more than 50 million pesos in damage and the owner has spent the last 6 months making all the repairs.
long story short - she fired him, went to the law and they could do nothing to him. he got away with the whole thing and a number of the towns people participated. the police conducted 1 interview and basically did not pursue the case any further.
so, the state provides assistance to the poor so they can sue the people who provide their income. they do this with great success. the people who provide their income have very little protection from these folks when they pull BS. there are alot of people getting caught up in the system that do not deserve to be caught up in the system. i guess it goes without saying, alot of inequalities exist on the other side of the equation as well.
moral of the story - people that actually treat their employees well do not deserve to be treated poorly. it is truly a case of biting the hand that feeds.
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Post by elexpatriado on Apr 29, 2016 9:13:33 GMT -5
elexpatriado go back to the top and read the OP again. It is NOT so much the hourly rate that could be the problem .....it is all the added on extra benefits like providing a uniform, the extra payments for holidays, paying for health insurance etc. If you don't dot all the i's and cross all the t's it can come back to bite you. I would love to tell you the full story of what happened with the little indian beach in my example but it is too much personal information to post on a public forum. Maybe one day we can get together for a few cold beers and swap some war stories. Okay ill give her a pair of my sandles and T-shirts when shes cleaning my place..wouldnt want to end up in an over crowded cell with a bunch of burly horny pervert Colombians because I didnt do my legal duty LOL..you guys are funny..is that all you do is mamar gallo?
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Post by elexpatriado on Apr 29, 2016 9:20:23 GMT -5
the law that is emerging here is hypocritical at best and really serves to create further division between those who employee and those who work for employers. a close personal friend of mine (colombian) who has substantial assets owns a recreational/agricultural finca. she employees about 5 people at the finca to help with the cattle and maintenance around the farm. the men do the outside work and the women (wives) take care of the house. suffice it to say, it is a never ending revolving door with these people as most of them can't read or write, are hard to give direction to and would rather work less all the time. the last mayordomo she hired to take care of the property and cattle started cheating on his wife in the little town below the finca. it was basically a no win situation and was causing problems so she fired him after about two months. sunday afternoon after she left the farm to come back to town, he recruited some guys down in the little town and they spent 4-5 days tearing up the house. their MO was to bust holes in the concrete in every room looking for a guaca. they destroyed most of the furniture and threw hundreds of pounds of dirt into the pool. all in all they did more than 50 million pesos in damage and the owner has spent the last 6 months making all the repairs. long story short - she fired him, went to the law and they could do nothing to him. he got away with the whole thing and a number of the towns people participated. the police conducted 1 interview and basically did not pursue the case any further. so, the state provides assistance to the poor so they can sue the people who provide their income. they do this with great success. the people who provide their income have very little protection from these folks when they pull BS. there are alot of people getting caught up in the system that do not deserve to be caught up in the system. i guess it goes without saying, alot of inequalities exist on the other side of the equation as well. moral of the story - people that actually treat their employees well do not deserve to be treated poorly. it is truly a case of biting the hand that feeds. Thats another Good reason to keep things simple and own nothing in Colombia.You cant get blood from a,Stone.
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Post by elexpatriado on Apr 29, 2016 9:29:30 GMT -5
elexpatriado go back to the top and read the OP again. It is NOT so much the hourly rate that could be the problem .....it is all the added on extra benefits like providing a uniform, the extra payments for holidays, paying for health insurance etc. If you don't dot all the i's and cross all the t's it can come back to bite you. I would love to tell you the full story of what happened with the little indian beach in my example but it is too much personal information to post on a public forum. Maybe one day we can get together for a few cold beers and swap some war stories. Okay being 100 % serious,in my personal case, if I decided to terminate her employment because I moved to another city,(which may happen shortly) and for some strange bizzare reason she wanted to extort money off of me after 2 years employment totaling 350 hours total, how would she do it and more importantly, how would she extract the money, since I have absolutely zero , nada, nothing as far as assets in Colombia? Think about it practically and logically for a moment... To be honest, I am not in the least bit concerned, and only discussing this for the entertainment value LOL..
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Post by barrumundi on Apr 29, 2016 9:34:53 GMT -5
The uniform the maid would like: The uniform elexpatriado would like:
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Post by coolcoil on Apr 29, 2016 10:11:34 GMT -5
Okay being 100 % serious,in my personal case, if I decided to terminate her employment because I moved to another city,(which may happen shortly) and for some strange bizzare reason she wanted to extort money off of me after 2 years employment totaling 350 hours total, how would she do it and more importantly, how would she extract the money, since I have absolutely zero , nada, nothing as far as assets in Colombia? Think about it practically and logically for a moment... To be honest, I am not in the least bit concerned, and only discussing this for the entertainment value LOL.. You can be barred from leaving the country if you have not paid court-ordered debts. I don't know much about that law, but there was a gringo here in La Ceja who could not leave because he owed the local (non-public) hospital about USD $9,000, and I've heard of it happening to others.
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Post by suba on Apr 29, 2016 10:25:48 GMT -5
I'm pretty much with Elex on this, I pay my maid more than most - 50k once a week for a days work. I don't get this obsession with paying the minimum, my maid cleans everything top to bottom, she never stops and earns a good wage because after working for me the next day she goes off to another house who pay her the same and she works like a trojan there too.
My friend is a Colombian doctor and sticks to the minimum wage, and so in turn he gets the minimum amount of work done, his maid takes three days to do what mine does in one. On the other hand if you want a long term formal arrangement then you need to think about pensions etc. Things are changing in Colombia, those perceived as being well off are increasingly being targeted to pay for those who can't or won't work.
My electricity bill went up this month because I didn't save electricity, I didn't use more just didn't use less. The thinking behind this is that if you can afford to pay then you can afford a little more.
Be it the need to subsidise pensions for those casually employed or to pay for the governments pathetic ventures like the Isagen sale, the wealth creators will gradually be driven away and then a new government will be elected and the old policies ripped up before the whole thing starts again.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2016 10:53:16 GMT -5
So what is the legal distinction between a full time maid and a part time maid/cook/gardener and what are the part timers legal rights? Barru, it seems like you got educated the hard way, can you tell us more about the case without getting into personal details, to avoid what happened to your family? What I'm reading into this; don't ever trust a Colombian who works for you, no matter how generously you treat them. Even if you keep him/her employed until the day you die, all bets are off at that point and they will go after your estate.
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Post by barrumundi on Apr 29, 2016 12:09:43 GMT -5
@costenogringo it's not that they WILL do it, but a warning that they CAN do it. In Colombia there are probably millions of employer - employee ralationships that are wonderful. Talking now about small business and household type employment ....not large companies with employees on contracts etc.
No, I won't go into the details of my experience here on a public forum @costenogringo , but I will send you a PM later.
The TRAP as I see it is that traditionally many Colombians (in the past) have been employed casually on an hourly basis and may work one hour a week or 6 hours a day, 5 days a week. They may have been paid the minimum wage, or more but traditionally they didn't receive extra payments for holidays, health insurance, uniforms, long service leave etc.
Now that the laws have changed to protect the workers they are very aware of their rights and in many cases (that I know of) they don't say anything to their employer while they are employed but once they leave the job they hit their previous employer with a demand for millions as punishment for not giving them the 'extras'.
Paying your maid, garden guy, maintenance guy, cleaning lady, shop assistant etc twice the minimum wage doesn't mean they won't put a demand on you later.
Doesn't matter that you give them free meals. Doesn't matter that you give them your old clothes. Doesn't matter that you lend them money. Doesn't matter that you treat them like family. If you don't provide everything the law says you must provide ......you MIGHT pay for it later.
My wife and I together over the years have employed hundreds of locals, mostly casuals, but ALWAYS paid more than the minimum wage. My wife now has vowed to never, ever employ a single Colombian ever again in her life .........not even a cleaning lady.
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Post by wildstubby on Apr 29, 2016 12:51:50 GMT -5
suba said: That sounds more like socialism if I ever I seen it!!!!!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2016 14:11:33 GMT -5
@costenogringo it's not that they WILL do it, but a warning that they CAN do it. In Colombia there are probably millions of employer - employee ralationships that are wonderful. Talking now about small business and household type employment ....not large companies with employees on contracts etc. No, I won't go into the details of my experience here on a public forum @costenogringo , but I will send you a PM later. The TRAP as I see it is that traditionally many Colombians (in the past) have been employed casually on an hourly basis and may work one hour a week or 6 hours a day, 5 days a week. They may have been paid the minimum wage, or more but traditionally they didn't receive extra payments for holidays, health insurance, uniforms, long service leave etc. Now that the laws have changed to protect the workers they are very aware of their rights and in many cases (that I know of) they don't say anything to their employer while they are employed but once they leave the job they hit their previous employer with a demand for millions as punishment for not giving them the 'extras'. Paying your maid, garden guy, maintenance guy, cleaning lady, shop assistant etc twice the minimum wage doesn't mean they won't put a demand on you later. Doesn't matter that you give them free meals. Doesn't matter that you give them your old clothes. Doesn't matter that you lend them money. Doesn't matter that you treat them like family. If you don't provide everything the law says you must provide ......you MIGHT pay for it later. My wife and I together over the years have employed hundreds of locals, mostly casuals, but ALWAYS paid more than the minimum wage. My wife now has vowed to never, ever employ a single Colombian ever again in her life .........not even a cleaning lady. nail on the head
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Post by elexpatriado on Apr 29, 2016 15:01:37 GMT -5
Okay being 100 % serious,in my personal case, if I decided to terminate her employment because I moved to another city,(which may happen shortly) and for some strange bizzare reason she wanted to extort money off of me after 2 years employment totaling 350 hours total, how would she do it and more importantly, how would she extract the money, since I have absolutely zero , nada, nothing as far as assets in Colombia? Think about it practically and logically for a moment... To be honest, I am not in the least bit concerned, and only discussing this for the entertainment value LOL.. You can be barred from leaving the country if you have not paid court-ordered debts. I don't know much about that law, but there was a gringo here in La Ceja who could not leave because he owed the local (non-public) hospital about USD $9,000, and I've heard of it happening to others. Okay, Ill put that on my list of "Worries".. I guess i t would be number 76 or 77 in order..right after how to cure my toe fungus..I think I will be held in the country for a $300 debt that may possibly, very remotely have to pay somewhere down the line in the future....hmmm..how much did I have to pay the border guard in Kazakhstan when they tried the same thing on me..$20..OK with inflation $100 might work in Colombia. Maybe I should worry about the guy I just paid 30 mil pesos to fix my computer as well.. Also, as far as any gringo "Barred" from leaving the country I say "Chismosos!" I believe it when I see it with my own eyes, not second hand over the internet from a bunch of Nervous Nellies. Oh life is so dreadful should have staid in bed and hid under my covers!!
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Post by billforce on Apr 30, 2016 1:49:20 GMT -5
Canada,the much maligned other brother from the English mom Definition of a Canadian. An Unarmed American with Dubious Health care.
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Post by suba on Apr 30, 2016 21:33:28 GMT -5
The uniform the maid would like: The uniform elexpatriado would like: Do you think that would fit him?
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Post by elexpatriado on May 1, 2016 14:54:34 GMT -5
So what is the legal distinction between a full time maid and a part time maid/cook/gardener and what are the part timers legal rights? Barru, it seems like you got educated the hard way, can you tell us more about the case without getting into personal details, to avoid what happened to your family? What I'm reading into this; don't ever trust a Colombian who works for you, no matter how generously you treat them. Even if you keep him/her employed until the day you die, all bets are off at that point and they will go after your estate. Sell your house and put your money in the US."Prestó" all these imagined problems are solved. Better yet, spend it all before you pass away.
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