Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2016 2:35:03 GMT -5
I just filed. Based upon my experience, and according to what my accountant advises, non-residents (meaning people who live in country less than 183 days) do not have to file. For example, I have an American ex-pat friend, who does not meet the 183-day rule, so he is not considered a resident for taxation purposes. He was advised not to file. For those individuals who are residents or Citizens, they must file only if their personal wealth or personal income exceed the reporting thresholds. If this is confusing for you, it's probably best you consult with an accountant.
The problem is Colombian accountants generally have no idea. The amount I have had to school them on the laws dumfounds me - even when they are meant to be accountants who are conversant with the requirements for expats. Every single one I have met with states that because I have a Colombian wife and child I am a tax resident regardless, even if outside the country for more than 183 days. I then have to show the paragraph 3 which clearly states ''ser nacional'' with those requirements below. They then agree that I am not. They should know that straight up. You are correct. Just because you have a Colombian wife and child, it does not make you a tax resident. And even if you do meet the 183-day rule, you may not need to file if your personal income or personal wealth do not meet the filing threshold.
Yes, employing the Socratic method is mandatory in this country. Ask a lot of questions, and hopefully, you will find the truth. This applies to whether you are trying to purchase a fine cut of Angus beef or getting your taxes done. I ask a lot of questions... all the time. My wife says I am "grosero" at times when I do, but I don't care. It's in my nature, and the way I was trained. I can't tell you the number of times, someone has tried to hand me a "Christmas Goose". I've been fortunate with the two accountants I've used in Colombia. Both know how to listen... a trait that is often lacking in many Colombians. I consulted with an accountant even before I was required to file. He kept me up to speed on current tax law, and when I finally had to file, he handled the declaration. Unfortunately, we had to part ways this year because of contractual commitments. I was fortunate to find an excellent tax attorney this year. She is savvy, and stays on top of the ever changing tax code by attending professional seminars and courses. I had to provide her with a number of documents... some were harder to obtain than others, but in the end, I am confident she prepared a document that was accurate. Good luck, Bickmed.
|
|
|
Post by bickmed on Aug 16, 2016 3:47:53 GMT -5
Pls, can I have the details of your accountant? Thanks for any help.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2016 7:09:19 GMT -5
Pls, can I have the details of your accountant? Thanks for any help. I will send her contact info to your inbox.
|
|
|
Post by bickmed on Aug 16, 2016 8:09:10 GMT -5
Thanks Vago. Appreciated.
|
|
|
Post by marazul on Aug 22, 2016 16:39:14 GMT -5
I read thru this again. Did anyone get an answer to the question if a non-resident has the same reporting requirement as a resident for the 127 M reporting requirement?
I just filed. Based upon my experience, and according to what my accountant advises, non-residents (meaning people who live in country less than 183 days) do not have to file. For example, I have an American ex-pat friend, who does not meet the 183-day rule, so he is not considered a resident for taxation purposes. He was advised not to file. For those individuals who are residents or Citizens, they must file only if their personal wealth or personal income exceed the reporting thresholds. If this is confusing for you, it's probably best you consult with an accountant.
As of this writing I remain unsure. There is no question a tax resident (>183 days) with assets more than about 127,000,000 COP must file. What Bickmed and I were both trying to find out is if you have >127,000,000 COP in assets in Colombia, but are not a tax resident (<183 days), is a filing required. Not even worried about what might or might not be owed yet. Like Bick, I now asked two tax professionals referred to me, and it's a 50/50 split. One says yes, the other said no. I have a followup soon with the yes people. Will report back. note: this situation is mostly unique to a non-resident that owns property in Colombia.
|
|
|
Post by elexpatriado on Aug 22, 2016 18:26:33 GMT -5
So under this line of thinking, if a wealthy person spent a week in Colombia on vacation, they would have to declare and possibly pay the wealth tax? An individual is a resident for tax purposes in Colombia if he/she is present in Colombia for more than 183 days (whether or not continuously) in a 365-day period. Doesn't matter what your visa situation is or if the 183 days straddles two years but is within a 365-day period (if it straddles two years -- for example 100 days in the last six months of year 1 and 84 days the beginning of year 2 you would be a tax resident in year 2). I understand from my accountant the wealth tax follows a similar rule residence rule. No way you would be liable for the wealth tax coming here as a tourist for a week. Why dont you guys just save yourself a lot time and headache and just sign a check to DIAN for the value of all your worldly possessions and get it overwith? Iam sure they would be compliant with that. Maybe some accountant will say any tourist that steps off the boat is subject to a 100% tax on all his income and all wordly possessions.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2016 8:23:18 GMT -5
I just filed. Based upon my experience, and according to what my accountant advises, non-residents (meaning people who live in country less than 183 days) do not have to file. For example, I have an American ex-pat friend, who does not meet the 183-day rule, so he is not considered a resident for taxation purposes. He was advised not to file. For those individuals who are residents or Citizens, they must file only if their personal wealth or personal income exceed the reporting thresholds. If this is confusing for you, it's probably best you consult with an accountant.
As of this writing I remain unsure. There is no question a tax resident (>183 days) with assets more than about 127,000,000 COP must file. What Bickmed and I were both trying to find out is if you have >127,000,000 COP in assets in Colombia, but are not a tax resident (<183 days), is a filing required. Not even worried about what might or might not be owed yet. Like Bick, I now asked two tax professionals referred to me, and it's a 50/50 split. One says yes, the other said no. I have a followup soon with the yes people. Will report back. note: this situation is mostly unique to a non-resident that owns property in Colombia. If I did not reside in Colombia more than 183 days, I would not have filed. (Even with my assets in Colombia.)
|
|
|
Post by charlie640 on Aug 24, 2016 22:26:25 GMT -5
VAGO >> would also appreciate the name of your accountant
Anyone have a link the WEALTH TAX form and instructions ??
|
|
|
Post by marazul on Aug 26, 2016 17:38:29 GMT -5
I just filed. Based upon my experience, and according to what my accountant advises, non-residents (meaning people who live in country less than 183 days) do not have to file. For example, I have an American ex-pat friend, who does not meet the 183-day rule, so he is not considered a resident for taxation purposes. He was advised not to file. For those individuals who are residents or Citizens, they must file only if their personal wealth or personal income exceed the reporting thresholds. If this is confusing for you, it's probably best you consult with an accountant.
As of this writing I remain unsure. There is no question a tax resident (>183 days) with assets more than about 127,000,000 COP must file. What Bickmed and I were both trying to find out is if you have >127,000,000 COP in assets in Colombia, but are not a tax resident (<183 days), is a filing required. Not even worried about what might or might not be owed yet. Like Bick, I now asked two tax professionals referred to me, and it's a 50/50 split. One says yes, the other said no. I have a followup soon with the yes people. Will report back. note: this situation is mostly unique to a non-resident that owns property in Colombia. The answer is no income tax filing is required for a non-resident with no income in Colombia. The key qualifier is no income. You could have a city apartment and a country finca, so long as the are for friends and family, no need to file income tax. Should you own real property and rent it out, you pay a income tax of a fixed 33% of net income generated as a non-resident. There is also a concept, sort of like AMT in the US, called presumptive income. On a 200,000,000 COP apartment, the presumptive income is 3% of asset value, or 6,000,000 and the tax due on that 33% or 2,000,000 COP minimum tax per year. If you rent out a place full time, you will normally have more then the presumptive income. None of the above has anything to do with "wealth tax". It's all about income tax. Wealth tax this year is only due for those previously obligated. As a non-resident, it's not likely an issue even if it gets renewed in future years. You would need a billion pesos of assets in Colombia. However if you become a resident, and they look at worldwide assets, that's only about 350,000 USD.
|
|
|
Post by saltador on Aug 26, 2016 21:33:12 GMT -5
Marazul, You're a little late to the conversation and maybe haven't read all the prior posts. What you're saying is only true if you don't spend more than 183 days in Colombia. If you spend more than 183 days in Colombia in any 365 day period, you are considered a resident of Colombia for tax purposes, and you will have to file. The key qualifier is the number of days in Colombia, that is the trigger.
|
|
|
Post by charlie640 on Aug 26, 2016 22:13:15 GMT -5
" However if you become a resident, and they look at worldwide assets, that's only about 350,000 USD. "
Huh
|
|
|
Post by bickmed on Aug 27, 2016 0:04:23 GMT -5
Marazul - even then, there is debate about if you have to file as a non tax resident for assets, nothing to do with income - ie merely owning a home , or home and car, over 127,000,000pesos as a resident means you have to file. If that applies to a foreigner, non tax resident, with his Colombian assets is up for debate, and I am yet to see anything in concrete that states it is not applicable.
|
|
|
Post by barrumundi on Aug 27, 2016 1:08:55 GMT -5
In almost any other country in the world if you were a resident or a non-resident you would have no problem finding out what your taxation obligations and liabilities are.
Three pages into this discussion and most of us are still just as confused (or un-convinced) as before ...........and if WE are confused .......imagine how confused DIAN would be. Jajajajajajaja
|
|
|
Post by bickmed on Aug 27, 2016 4:19:54 GMT -5
barrumundi - its a joke really. I paid a company in Medellin to go to DIAN and find out the answers. DIAN could sort not it out, and told them they have to ask these sorts of questions in DIAN Bogota. Its crazy.
Add to that, the fact that Colombian accountants are even more clueless, but give you a certain as hell, confident answer back - that is for sure incorrect - you then have to show them in the tax code why, and it is a nightmare.
|
|
|
Post by elexpatriado on Aug 27, 2016 11:24:34 GMT -5
In almost any other country in the world if you were a resident or a non-resident you would have no problem finding out what your taxation obligations and liabilities are. Three pages into this discussion and most of us are still just as confused (or un-convinced) as before ...........and if WE are confused .......imagine how confused DIAN would be. Jajajajajajaja Yeah.. LOL..Last time I went through the airport with 4 bags and nothing to declare they just waved me through (along with everyone else), and continued talking chismosos amongst each other.. People here seem to think they are dealing with a sophisticated agency in a first world country, Like the CIA or IRS or something.. These are poorly paid public servants in a third world country..remember that..
|
|
|
Post by elexpatriado on Aug 27, 2016 11:34:57 GMT -5
But you guys should be worried.. there are countless tax laws in Colombia out to get you..worldwide income, wealth tax on world wide assets, presumptive income tax on rental income yada..yada .yada..
and if you dont pay up right now, the justice department is gonna hunt you down, "embargo" your passport (LOL) and put all thier focus and energy on you to get you to pay up or if not throw your ass in the slammer..ahead of all those local Narcos, perverts, assassins..and other gringos like that Pervert Child Molester Colombia Jake whom it took 4 years to do anything about..even though he was broadcasting it to the whole world all along .. and only after the US Department of became involved..
For a lot of people here it is seems Colombia is the first third world country they have ever lived in..
|
|
|
Post by charlie640 on Aug 27, 2016 19:28:30 GMT -5
DIAN will have their hands full for the next 3 years auditing all the FAT CATS from the Panama Papers.... If I was the head of DIAN I would make that my top priority , cuz thats where the big $$$ is.
|
|
|
Post by marazul on Aug 28, 2016 19:31:14 GMT -5
Marazul - even then, there is debate about if you have to file as a non tax resident for assets, nothing to do with income - ie merely owning a home , or home and car, over 127,000,000pesos as a resident means you have to file. If that applies to a foreigner, non tax resident, with his Colombian assets is up for debate, and I am yet to see anything in concrete that states it is not applicable. Bickmed, I understand the issue. Had the same question. Look back to my original post in this thread. For a foreign, non-resident it seems to depend on income, especially if you had any. Profit or net income is meaningless. No income as a non resident, then the asset value doesn't matter. Don't need to file either. Here is the ruling quoted by the accountant I spoke with: De acuerdo con lo dispuesto en la Sentencia 16027 de abril de 2008 del Consejo de Estado y que anuló el Concepto DIAN 85384 de 2005, las personas sin residencia fiscal en Colombia, no están obligadas a declarar renta en los casos en que posean bienes en Colombia pero que durante el año no hayan generado ingresos. My Spanish sucks, but further looking found this: www.cijuf.org.co/sites/cijuf.org.co/files/documentos_interes/FLASH%20270.pdfI think all of this only applies to non residents with property. But the key takeaway, is if you have no income, there isn't any income tax implications without Colombian income based on the asset. If you are a resident, I believe you can exclude your "home" from both the income tax and wealth tax declarations.
|
|
|
Post by marazul on Aug 28, 2016 19:43:59 GMT -5
barrumundi - its a joke really. I paid a company in Medellin to go to DIAN and find out the answers. DIAN could sort not it out, and told them they have to ask these sorts of questions in DIAN Bogota. Its crazy.
Add to that, the fact that Colombian accountants are even more clueless, but give you a certain as hell, confident answer back - that is for sure incorrect - you then have to show them in the tax code why, and it is a nightmare. This is absolutely true. We have looked at exceeding 183 days and becoming tax residents. But then subject to worldwide income and asset reporting. Ask an accountant about how a 401K or IRA retirement plan is handled for Colombian income and wealth tax, and there seems to be no consistent answers. The US doesn't tax until distribution. But that's not something where there is a direct parallel in Colombia. So accountants get to make it up as they go. There isn't any clear definition on what the DIAN position would be. Even though for a US retiree, this is a very common situation.
|
|
|
Post by bickmed on Aug 28, 2016 22:44:19 GMT -5
Marazul - thank you for that. Interesting link - seems to be what I am after.
|
|
|
Post by suba on Sept 11, 2016 13:55:35 GMT -5
"DIAN will have their hands full for the next 3 years auditing all the FAT CATS from the Panama Papers.... If I was the head of DIAN I would make that my top priority , cuz thats where the big $$$ is."
Colombia won't go after these people. Firstly they don't have the money, Sweden just paid over a million Euros to have some of the files made available to them and secondly the very people at the top who should be doing investigating will probably be the same people who would be investigated if they did.
|
|
|
Post by sedelen on Sept 11, 2016 18:58:10 GMT -5
"DIAN will have their hands full for the next 3 years auditing all the FAT CATS from the Panama Papers.... If I was the head of DIAN I would make that my top priority , cuz thats where the big $$$ is." Colombia won't go after these people. Firstly they don't have the money, Sweden just paid over a million Euros to have some of the files made available to them and secondly the very people at the top who should be doing investigating will probably be the same people who would be investigated if they did. As far as Gringos listed on the Panama papers, read where there were not many and most were just ex-pats living in Costa Rica.
|
|
|
Post by akfrozen on Sept 24, 2016 11:05:11 GMT -5
First I always pay my taxes no matter where I am at.
But I do have a question, how does Colombia know what your worldwide income is?
A US citizens income in Colombia is reported to the US government but if I am correct a US citizens income in the US is not reported to the Colombian government.
I pay my taxes and this year file as required by Colombian law.
Just curious.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2016 12:28:02 GMT -5
First I always pay my taxes no matter where I am at. But I do have a question, how does Colombia know what your worldwide income is? A US citizens income in Colombia is reported to the US government but if I am correct a US citizens income in the US is not reported to the Colombian government. I pay my taxes and this year file as required by Colombian law. Just curious. The US has an agreement with Colombia where it makes your US income available to Colombian DIAN and vice versa. The agreement was implemented two years ago. FATCA must be filed by US citizens with assets abroad. www.treasury.gov/resource-center/tax-policy/treaties/Pages/FATCA.aspx
|
|
|
Post by saltador on Sept 24, 2016 15:43:31 GMT -5
Assets abroad meaning bank accounts. Not real estate. Just a clarification.
|
|
|
Post by scott on Sept 24, 2016 15:59:43 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by akfrozen on Sept 24, 2016 17:24:15 GMT -5
First I always pay my taxes no matter where I am at. But I do have a question, how does Colombia know what your worldwide income is? A US citizens income in Colombia is reported to the US government but if I am correct a US citizens income in the US is not reported to the Colombian government. I pay my taxes and this year file as required by Colombian law. Just curious. The US has an agreement with Colombia where it makes your US income available to Colombian DIAN and vice versa. The agreement was implemented two years ago. FATCA must be filed by US citizens with assets abroad. www.treasury.gov/resource-center/tax-policy/treaties/Pages/FATCA.aspx Got it, thanks
|
|
|
Post by sedelen on Sept 24, 2016 18:24:01 GMT -5
First I always pay my taxes no matter where I am at. But I do have a question, how does Colombia know what your worldwide income is? A US citizens income in Colombia is reported to the US government but if I am correct a US citizens income in the US is not reported to the Colombian government. I pay my taxes and this year file as required by Colombian law. Just curious. I'm not sure, but I have asked, whether you have to file anything here when you file, with your social security number. One person answered me, yes. If that's the case, with a social security number they can find a lot, compare information, and so forth, plus there would be a big potential for fraud also.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2016 8:25:51 GMT -5
First I always pay my taxes no matter where I am at. But I do have a question, how does Colombia know what your worldwide income is? A US citizens income in Colombia is reported to the US government but if I am correct a US citizens income in the US is not reported to the Colombian government. I pay my taxes and this year file as required by Colombian law. Just curious. I'm not sure, but I have asked, whether you have to file anything here when you file, with your social security number. One person answered me, yes. If that's the case, with a social security number they can find a lot, compare information, and so forth, plus there would be a big potential for fraud also. I've never given my SS #, but if you have a visa, the Colombian government has your passport number, and they can obtain your information from the US (or wherever) by cross-referencing your data. I do not think the information infrastructure is such in Colombia, that DIAN can strike a key, and obtain all your financial information. But, if DIAN wants to go after you, the US IRS et al have the information available.
|
|
azarat
Junior Member
Posts: 40
|
Post by azarat on Sept 25, 2016 10:27:38 GMT -5
First I always pay my taxes no matter where I am at. But I do have a question, how does Colombia know what your worldwide income is? A US citizens income in Colombia is reported to the US government but if I am correct a US citizens income in the US is not reported to the Colombian government. I pay my taxes and this year file as required by Colombian law. Just curious. Hmm..you pay your taxes every year by Colombian law..which.means you have Filled Out the formulario 160 for the last 2 years and have stated ALL your wordly income to the Colombian government since the first day you were a permanent resident in Colombia.. So I just have no idea why you would be remotely curious as to how DIAN (the sophisticated, competent agency they are) could obtain information from the IRS or US Financial institutions..doesnt make sense to me.. And another thing, since you obviously have sucsessfully Filled out a Formulario 160,twice for that matter, maybe you can help some of the members here who seem to have a very hard time of completing the form online. Share your expertise.
|
|