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Post by bickmed on May 6, 2016 8:02:35 GMT -5
I am interested if anyone is in a similar situation and can shed light on the tax status for foreigners, with the following details. A T10 Visa and Cedula
A wife / home who are in Colombia,
however the foreigner (me) is away from Colombia more than 183 days a year.
I have spoken to a few tax agents and they all immediately state that if you have a T10 cedula (spousal) then you are a tax resident regardless.
When I ask them to prove it, they usually say they will check and then never confirm.
As I understand it, for foreigners,
- if you are away for more than 183 days a year, then you are not liable for wordwide income tax even if you have residency or a T10 type visa.
- A tax agent then always says, but because your wife and home are here (inColombia), then even if you are away for 200 days a year, you are still a tax resident for WW income due to that.
- When they are shown ley 10, SECTION 3, they do a double check.
To me, it states 'SER NACIONAL'' (so to be a Colombian Citizen) and in that case, yes it states that if you wife / dependent child reside in Colombia, you would still be a tax resident for WW income even if a Colombian was away for more than 183 days. I would think that this is NOT applicable to foreigners, even if they have a cedula etc?
It seems that the clause that relates to foreigners, is only the 183 day rule.
Has anyone else faced this issue? Am I missing something?
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Post by bickmed on May 6, 2016 8:03:41 GMT -5
Artículo 2°. Modifíquese el artículo 10 del Estatuto Tributario, el cual quedará así: Artículo 10. Residencia para efectos tributarios. Se consideran residentes en Colombia para efectos tributarios las personas naturales que cumplan con cualquiera de las siguientes condiciones:
1. Permanecer continua o discontinuamente en el país por más de ciento ochenta y tres (183) días calendario incluyendo días de entrada y salida del país, durante un periodo cualquiera de trescientos sesenta y cinco (365) días calendario consecutivos, en el entendido que, cuando la permanencia continua o discontinua en el país recaiga sobre más de un año o periodo gravable, se considerará que la persona es residente a partir del segundo año o periodo gravable.
2. Encontrarse, por su relación con el servicio exterior del Estado colombiano o con personas que se encuentran en el servicio exterior del Estado colombiano, y en virtud de las convenciones de Viena sobre relaciones diplomáticas y consulares, exentos de tributación en el país en el que se encuentran en misión respecto de toda o parte de sus rentas y ganancias ocasionales durante el respectivo año o periodo gravable.
SECTION 3.
Ser nacionales y que durante el respectivo año o periodo gravable:
a) Su cónyuge o compañero permanente no separado legalmente o los hijos dependientes menores de edad, tengan residencia fiscal en el país; o, b) El cincuenta por ciento (50%) o más de sus ingresos sean de fuente nacional; o, c) El cincuenta por ciento (50%) o más de sus bienes sean administrados en el país; o, d) El cincuenta por ciento (50%) o más de sus activos se entiendan poseídos en el país; o. e) Habiendo sido requeridos por la Administración Tributaria para ello, no acrediten su condición de residentes en el exterior para efectos tributarios; o, f) Tengan residencia fiscal en una jurisdicción calificada por el Gobierno nacional como paraíso fiscal.
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Post by barrumundi on May 6, 2016 8:13:38 GMT -5
50 shades of grey (gray) jajajajajaja. Welcome to the forum bickmed. Thank you very much for your first post being such a light and easy going subject! Tax for resident gringos is a very problematic subject. The average Colombian contador doesn't have a clue and the more people you ask, the more different answers you will have. Good luck!
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Post by bickmed on May 6, 2016 8:20:21 GMT -5
Thanks, and yes, I know it is a difficult one.
The thing is, I rang the DIAN help line and after I pointed out the Ser Nacionales - after much discussion they agreed that this affected Colombians. All good - however, I mention it to a few gringos in Medellin who are not sure, so I get some contacts for Accountants, who speak English and work with foreigners all the time. And each one stated that if you have a cedula regardless, you are a tax resident and liable; then when proven (I think) wrong on that, they all insist that cause I have a wife and kids there that I am liable.
I guess I am trying to see if I am missing something other than the law I posted above. I want to be sure, as it has a big impact on me.
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Post by barrumundi on May 6, 2016 8:22:39 GMT -5
I have yet to read any explanation that is easy to understand: A person is considered fiscally resident in Colombia if one remains in the country (continuously or not) for an aggregate period of time of 183 days within a period of 365 consecutive days. In cases where that requirement is met by considering the days spent in Colombia over two successive fiscal years, the individual qualifies as tax resident as of the second fiscal year. Also, if the person is a Colombian national, one will be fiscally resident if one falls within any of the following scenarios: The spouse or dependants remain in the country for 183 days (continuously or not) within a period of 365 consecutive days. 50% or more of one's income is sourced directly or indirectly in Colombia. 50% or more of one's property/assets are managed in Colombia. 50% or more of one's assets are 'physically' located in Colombia. The tax authority (DIAN) requests proof of fiscal residency in another country and said proof is not provided to the DIAN. The person has a fiscal residence in a place considered a tax haven by the Colombian government. For the above scenarios, the period actually spent by the Colombian individual in Colombia is irrelevant. However, further to the 2014 tax reform, an individual will not be a Colombian resident for any of the bullets before if 50% or more of its yearly income has been sourced where one is domiciled, or 50% or more of one's assets are located where one is domiciled. Last Reviewed - 01 January 2016 taxsummaries.pwc.com/uk/taxsummaries/wwts.nsf/ID/Colombia-Individual-Residence
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Post by bickmed on May 6, 2016 8:31:20 GMT -5
Yes, that is what I have, so I am at a loss as to why Colombian Tax Accountants insist I am liable, even when shown that in Spanish.
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Post by barrumundi on May 6, 2016 8:36:52 GMT -5
Yes, that is what I have, so I am at a loss as to why Colombian Tax Accountants insist I am liable, even when shown that in Spanish. They want your money? Did they quote you a fee?
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Post by bickmed on May 6, 2016 9:01:34 GMT -5
No fee, we didn't get that far - in the end (after only 2 / 3 back and forths), they stopped replying.
I said I was willing to pay a fair fee for an appraisal.
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Post by dandl93 on May 6, 2016 9:42:43 GMT -5
You cant find it in the Dian tax code because they are going on the law of your Cedula.A cedula is issued as a Temp/Perm residenance card just like a US green card to keep it you have to stay in the country so many days and not out of the country over a period of time.
All this goes back to expats having problems getting anything done with out a Cedula.Get a Cedula you are now a resident liable for taxes all res are liable for world wide taxes.
Solution keep a Cedula and file taxes drop the Cedula and just be a tourist.
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Post by bickmed on May 6, 2016 11:14:06 GMT -5
How does that then work for Colombians - they can be out of country for more than 183 days and not be liable for world wide taxes (as long as their wife / child is not in Colombia).
Also if I have a resident visa / cedula, I can be out of the country for up to 2 years and maintain its validity.
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Post by elexpatriado on May 6, 2016 11:21:11 GMT -5
Thanks, and yes, I know it is a difficult one. The thing is, I rang the DIAN help line and after I pointed out the Ser Nacionales - after much discussion they agreed that this affected Colombians. All good - however, I mention it to a few gringos in Medellin who are not sure, so I get some contacts for Accountants, who speak English and work with foreigners all the time. And each one stated that if you have a cedula regardless, you are a tax resident and liable; then when proven (I think) wrong on that, they all insist that cause I have a wife and kids there that I am liable. I guess I am trying to see if I am missing something other than the law I posted above. I want to be sure, as it has a big impact on me. I think you are talking to too many people. Especially DIAN. I suggest just sell any assets you have in Colombia, take a profit move it to the states- No Assets in Colombia to "embargo"..nothing to worry about, DIAN wont even bother you. They just want the"Low Hanging Fruit" if anything Also, you can survive pretty good here without a cedula. You can drive, buy a house and have a medical program. Dont know abut a bank account, but you dont bneed one to survive. Also, if you have a passport with a visa number on it , (which is the same as a cedula) you don´t physically need the card. I survived like that for severl months once.
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Post by elexpatriado on May 6, 2016 11:26:46 GMT -5
You cant find it in the Dian tax code because they are going on the law of your Cedula.A cedula is issued as a Temp/Perm residenance card just like a US green card to keep it you have to stay in the country so many days and not out of the country over a period of time. All this goes back to expats having problems getting anything done with out a Cedula.Get a Cedula you are now a resident liable for taxes all res are liable for world wide taxes. Solution keep a Cedula and file taxes drop the Cedula and just be a tourist. You can still have a cedula and be in the country less than 183 days.Its the stamp on your passport that (supposedly) counts. Okay, I know the law for the cedula and visa may say you have tio be in more than 183 days, but I kno lots of guys who have cedulas who arent in 183 days. Even foreigners who are Colomban Citizens who are out 183 days.
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Post by gallito on May 6, 2016 11:28:48 GMT -5
Welcome to the unreal world of Colombia;this tax thing is another reason why I don't live there full time there.
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Post by barrumundi on May 6, 2016 11:33:15 GMT -5
How does that then work for Colombians - they can be out of country for more than 183 days and not be liable for world wide taxes (as long as their wife / child is not in Colombia). bickmed, from the article I posted above: "For the above scenarios, the period actually spent by the Colombian individual in Colombia is irrelevant."
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Post by dandl93 on May 6, 2016 11:55:35 GMT -5
You cant find it in the Dian tax code because they are going on the law of your Cedula.A cedula is issued as a Temp/Perm residenance card just like a US green card to keep it you have to stay in the country so many days and not out of the country over a period of time. All this goes back to expats having problems getting anything done with out a Cedula.Get a Cedula you are now a resident liable for taxes all res are liable for world wide taxes. Solution keep a Cedula and file taxes drop the Cedula and just be a tourist. You can still have a cedula and be in the country less than 183 days.Its the stamp on your passport that (supposedly) counts. Okay, I know the law for the cedula and visa may say you have tio be in more than 183 days, but I kno lots of guys who have cedulas who arent in 183 days. Even foreigners who are Colomban Citizens who are out 183 days. I never brought up the 183 day rule which is for tourists.The Cedula law on days in the country are differant it stats you have to be in the country every 6 months or so or you dont qualify for your Cedula and you have to start over (Temp to Perm to Citizenship if you are working towrds that goal).Cedula lets you be in the contry aliitle or as much as you want BUT you are a resident if you have one as a resident you are liable to being taxed.
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Post by bickmed on May 6, 2016 12:14:18 GMT -5
The 183 day rule applies to Colombians and foreigners for tax. If you are a foreigner, and in the country more than 183 days, you are a tax resident for W/W income. For Colombians, (without family in Colombia and the other stipulations of section 3), who are out of Colombian more than 183 days, are also not liable for world wide income tax.
That principle is similar in various countries, in Australia I am considered a resident (and citizen) however I am also a formal non-resident for tax purposes, as I meet the required stipulations in the tax code. I pay Australian tax on Australian earned income, but not foreign earned income.
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Post by bickmed on May 11, 2016 12:31:08 GMT -5
Just an update; I arrived back in Colombia and made an appointment with an accountant and lawyer from a firm who deal with foreigners. The important thing for my situation is to not be in Colombia for more than 183 days in any 365 day period. If I do that, then I am not a resident for fiscal matters and do not have to report overseas income. Does not matter if I have temporal or resident visa - as long as I stay out of Colombia for the 183 days, I am good.
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Post by barrumundi on May 11, 2016 14:14:10 GMT -5
Good to know. Thanks bickmed. Please let us know if you find out something different.
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Post by bickmed on May 11, 2016 16:21:25 GMT -5
I have to complete my tax returns for the last few years for property - I will probably receive a fine from DIAN.
I have asked them for all the info, implications and costs to form an SAS.
They are going to revert on the form 160 - however if I have to file, I understand it will be on my Colombian assets only.
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Post by ozgringo on May 11, 2016 18:30:13 GMT -5
I have to complete my tax returns for the last few years for property - I will probably receive a fine from DIAN. I have asked them for all the info, implications and costs to form an SAS. They are going to revert on the form 160 - however if I have to file, I understand it will be on my Colombian assets only. Here is a good write up on setting up a SAS. caliadventurer.com/7-steps-to-starting-a-business-in-colombia/
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Post by teeo9111 on Jul 27, 2016 20:27:50 GMT -5
My accountant tells me that there is a new tax decree for 2017 that will make worldwide pensions exempt,not just Colombian pensions.
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Post by sedelen on Jul 28, 2016 19:15:53 GMT -5
My accountant tells me that there is a new tax decree for 2017 that will make worldwide pensions exempt,not just Colombian pensions. That is such sweet music to my ears! I hope he/she is correct. Who knows, I may never have to pay one "peso!"
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2016 7:12:39 GMT -5
My accountant tells me that there is a new tax decree for 2017 that will make worldwide pensions exempt,not just Colombian pensions. Good news if DIAN gets onboard with what the law already states.
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Post by saltador on Jul 29, 2016 12:36:19 GMT -5
Bickmed, In your opinion, which of these scenarios require filing with Dian?
1. US citizen owns property in Colombia, but stays out of Colombia at least 183 days. 2. US citizen owns property in Colombia, but does not stay out of Colombia for at least 183 days. 3. US citizen lives virtually 365 in Colombia, but does not own property.
I know people that fit all three of these profiles, none of them file anything. But I remember G-Loids experience with DIAN.
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Post by elexpatriado on Jul 29, 2016 13:49:36 GMT -5
I talked to An old Austria guy whos coussin moved to Colombia 30 years ago and has a major import /export businesss.
Really well.off multi millionare.
Keeps bragging he never payd taxes un Colombia. I guess DIAN must have different rules for Austria multimillonare residentes..
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Post by dandl93 on Jul 29, 2016 16:36:39 GMT -5
This 183 day thing only qualifies you as a Resident or Tourist.Once you have a cedula # you are on the books as a resident with Dian in most cases.Once a person gets a Visa for any purpose except tourist it requires you to apply for a cedula in 15 days.Depends on your visa and cedula but you only have to be in the country a few days every 6months,1 year or 2 years and you are still a resident and keep your cedula# that requires you to file taxes.
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Post by saltador on Jul 30, 2016 10:18:35 GMT -5
dandl93, do you possibly have a link to any information regarding Colombian taxes being triggered by a cedula? You are the first person I've heard saying that would be a trigger, although obviously the majority of people with cedulas spend more than 6 months a year in Colombia, which would then trigger it. I've had two different visas (but haven't needed one for years) as well as a cedula, but never spend 6 months in Colombia. Here is a link many might find useful: tudeclaracion.com/obligados-a-presentar-declaracion-de-renta-2016/I just registered and logged into the site above, they have agents working that will do a live chat with you and answer your questions. I asked if I needed to declare because I had property and a cedula, but was not in Colombia more than 183 days per year. They told me I did not.
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Post by scumbuster on Jul 30, 2016 11:08:27 GMT -5
I could be completely wrong on this. But isn't it 2 different tax situations. One is the wealth tax and the other is income tax. Income tax you have to be in Colombia more than 183 days. The wealth tax it doesn't matter how long your in Colombia if your over the asset numbers, value in home, bank account, credit card expenditures.
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Post by saltador on Jul 30, 2016 12:29:55 GMT -5
I could be completely wrong on this. But isn't it 2 different tax situations. One is the wealth tax and the other is income tax. Income tax you have to be in Colombia more than 183 days. The wealth tax it doesn't matter how long your in Colombia if your over the asset numbers, value in home, bank account, credit card expenditures. So under this line of thinking, if a wealthy person spent a week in Colombia on vacation, they would have to declare and possibly pay the wealth tax?
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Post by livinginmedellin on Jul 30, 2016 12:47:31 GMT -5
I could be completely wrong on this. But isn't it 2 different tax situations. One is the wealth tax and the other is income tax. Income tax you have to be in Colombia more than 183 days. The wealth tax it doesn't matter how long your in Colombia if your over the asset numbers, value in home, bank account, credit card expenditures. So under this line of thinking, if a wealthy person spent a week in Colombia on vacation, they would have to declare and possibly pay the wealth tax? An individual is a resident for tax purposes in Colombia if he/she is present in Colombia for more than 183 days (whether or not continuously) in a 365-day period. Doesn't matter what your visa situation is or if the 183 days straddles two years but is within a 365-day period (if it straddles two years -- for example 100 days in the last six months of year 1 and 84 days the beginning of year 2 you would be a tax resident in year 2). I understand from my accountant the wealth tax follows a similar rule residence rule. No way you would be liable for the wealth tax coming here as a tourist for a week.
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